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Grammar schools 'ghettos for rich'

2:00am Wednesday 21st November 2007

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GRAMMAR schools do little to help children from poorer backgrounds and create "ghettos" for the wealthy, according to research from York University.

Professor David Jesson, from York University, said: "Far from providing ladders of opportunity for pupils from disadvantaged backgrounds, grammar schools are more like ghettos of the advantaged."

However Sally Carr, councillor responsible for education on Southend Council, hit back. She said: "You can't buy brains. I totally dispute this research.

"I think the system gives every opportunity to all children in all walks of life."

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Your Say YourBasildon Recorder

Cityboy, Southend says...
10:01am Wed 21 Nov 07

Professor Jesson appears a complete left wing northern monkey and his statement has no substance whatsoever.I have seen with my own eyes the benefits of a Grammar school education to students from a wide range of social/economic backgrounds.

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Nigel, Billericay says...
10:51am Wed 21 Nov 07

The whole point about grammar schools is that they make a top education available to all, irrespective of social class, wealth creed or anything else. The only measure is ability.
Unfortunately, Labour and its Marxist supporters, many of whom such as Gordon Brown, Tony Blair Jack Straw(Brentwood)were educated at public or other fee-paying schools, believe that only the wealthy should have access to a good education.
Grammar schools surely represent one facet of socialism that actually works i.e. selection on merit rather than by wealth.
Those of us who care about education need to be extremely vigilant. The forces of Marxism are again rampant within the Labour Party.

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Dave H, Southend says...
10:51am Wed 21 Nov 07

"You can't buy brains"

No, but you can buy your kids private tutoring to pass the 11+, and a lot of people do.

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Ian G, Southend says...
11:07am Wed 21 Nov 07

Nigel, your argument assumes you can accurately assess who is deserving of this great education by an IQ test at the age of 11.

If you pass, great, if not, you're stuffed. Does that really sound all that fair to you?

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Cityboy, Southend says...
11:12am Wed 21 Nov 07

Ian G wrote:
Nigel, your argument assumes you can accurately assess who is deserving of this great education by an IQ test at the age of 11. If you pass, great, if not, you're stuffed. Does that really sound all that fair to you?
Not stuffed Nigel.You would just get the same education as you would if there was no grammar system which i believe you favour.So whats your problem?Thats what you want anyway isn't it?

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Brian, Colchester says...
11:15am Wed 21 Nov 07

The reason that more children from the middle class background attend grammer schools is that most people in middle class understand that to get to middle class, an education and/or hard work is normally necessary. Therefore, the detached house from Copford owners, as an example, who in most cases have worked their butts off to get there, make time to help their children learn out of school instead of letting them sit in front of Nickelodeon all evening. Those who do the latter expect everyone to hand it to their kids on a plate.

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Cityboy, Southend says...
11:25am Wed 21 Nov 07

Dave H wrote:
"You can't buy brains" No, but you can buy your kids private tutoring to pass the 11+, and a lot of people do.
Children from any back ground can be educated to help them pass the 11 plus.This starts at school.Any school.Are you saying Dave you would not help your kids out learning?Too busy 'popping out for a quick fag and quick pint eh'.Its all about priorities.

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Nigel, Billericay says...
11:59am Wed 21 Nov 07

The problem of the past 40 years is that grammar schools were largely destroyed before any one had put in place a plausible replacement, or even thought about how to do so, effectively leaving brighter children in a complete vacuum. And is our education system better for it? I don't think so.
Has any one yet come up with a sensible alternative to grammar schools? It is no longer in question that bright children should be educated separately so as not to hold them back. Even comprehensives are increasing setting and streaming.
The alternative is that parents will follow the example of Labour politicians, and pay to have their children educated, or play the school entrance system as Blair did to get his children educated at Brompton Oratory rather than Islington's comprehensives!

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A N Onymous, England says...
12:09pm Wed 21 Nov 07

Both my children went to a local grammar school and we are council tenants. They got there by hard work on their part and on ours. We took the time to encourage and educate them intead of leaving it all to the teachers.

Education should be fitted around the abilities of the child and take into account the different styles needed to achieve the best for all. We as a species are all different and you cannot expect one system to apply to all.


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Ian G, Southend says...
12:18pm Wed 21 Nov 07

Cityboy, So you admit then that in fact you're not measuring the intelligence of kids and seeing which would benefit from a grammar school education, you’re actually measuring how much time and effort parents have put into their children’s education. You are much more likely to be willing and able to help if you are well-off and have had a good education yourself. I think you called the academic quoted in this article a ‘left-wing Northern Monkey’ for saying exactly the same thing!

Over the past ten years or so years, if you didn't get into a grammar school in Southend 'stuffed' is a pretty accurate description. Thorpe Bay school failing for longer than any other school in the country, Prittlewell also failed an OFSTED and Shoeburyness has had it’s share of problems as well. Of course it’s possible for pupils from these schools to go on and do well, but they start at a huge disadvantage.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t wake up in the morning and think how wonderful it would be to abolish grammar schools in Southend, I just feel desperately sorry for the ‘average’ kids who didn’t make to a grammar school and suffered for it. Sally Carr in particular has been abominably indifferent to these other schools.

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MRS K, LEIGH says...
12:32pm Wed 21 Nov 07

What difference does having money make??? Don't all children who attend grammar school have to pass the 11 plus?.. My daughter is about to sit it this Saturday and we are far from rich, hopefully she will pass, the unfortunate thing is because we are slightly out of the area she has to get a huge pass to get in and the fact she is almost a year younger than some who will sit it no longer goes in her favour, but money has nothing to do with it, its about capability unless you know something I dont ?!

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Cityboy, Southend says...
1:01pm Wed 21 Nov 07

Ian G wrote:
Cityboy, So you admit then that in fact you're not measuring the intelligence of kids and seeing which would benefit from a grammar school education, you’re actually measuring how much time and effort parents have put into their children’s education. You are much more likely to be willing and able to help if you are well-off and have had a good education yourself. I think you called the academic quoted in this article a ‘left-wing Northern Monkey’ for saying exactly the same thing! Over the past ten years or so years, if you didn't get into a grammar school in Southend 'stuffed' is a pretty accurate description. Thorpe Bay school failing for longer than any other school in the country, Prittlewell also failed an OFSTED and Shoeburyness has had it’s share of problems as well. Of course it’s possible for pupils from these schools to go on and do well, but they start at a huge disadvantage. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t wake up in the morning and think how wonderful it would be to abolish grammar schools in Southend, I just feel desperately sorry for the ‘average’ kids who didn’t make to a grammar school and suffered for it. Sally Carr in particular has been abominably indifferent to these other schools.
Ian,unfortunately the world is not a 'fair' place.You are completely missing the point about all of this.You get out what you put in.Everybody finds their level at some stage throughout life and yes,to a certain extent those close to you play a big part in a childs development - I am not arguing that point.However without any reasonable alternative to the grammar system your argument is baseless if all you propose is stuffing everyone in the same boat just because you are maybe part of a minority who feel hard doneby for some reason and blame the current system.For the record,I come from a very humble background attending primary school in the middle of a council estate.

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Jon, says...
1:20pm Wed 21 Nov 07

What a load of tosh;you can not buy ability. I have two boys who have passed due to their ability and hard work and the time an effort my wife put in. Some parents just pack their kids of to school and put in nothing themselves. My third son takes the test this weekend and yes he has a tutor that costs a massive £15 a week. We have only done this because of the plummeting standard of education at his junior school which is where his brothers went but at the time we felt did not need any additional help other than at home. He does a tremendous amount of work at home and the main reason for the tutor was to take the stress out of the home and have someone else push him rather than us or more accurately my wife.
It is an IQ test and therefore you can not cram for it what you can do is coach which we have been doing.

The 11 plus is unfair but as people have said above until someone comes up with a structured mechanism for dismantling these schools what do we do. Easiest thing for the heads of failing schools is to blame their results on brighter pupils being taken up by the Grammar schools believe me I heard this at all three non-selective school open evenings I went to.

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Ian G, Southend says...
2:10pm Wed 21 Nov 07

OK, we’ve admitted that the 11+ isn’t fair, you certainly can coach people to pass IQ tests if you have some idea of the form the questions will take. People like Mrs K in Leigh who thinks that it is just a test of ability might be in for a nasty shock.

I went to an average comprehensive school and did well out of it. We had streaming for most subjects within the school, people could move up or down depending on how they coped and behaved. If people were great at maths but awful at English or whatever, the system allowed for that. There were a few discipline problems, but nothing that prevented me from learning. Every single kid at the school had the chance of a decent education. I’m afraid that there are some schools in Southend that I’m not sure you could say that about (although I think things are improving now).

Isn’t that much better than dividing children up at age 11?

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chiefy, says...
3:32pm Wed 21 Nov 07

I have one child at a comprehensive and one at a grammar school. And I can tell you there is a massive difference. This Labour government is slowly dumbing down the education system at comprehensive schools. Yes, they are throwing large amounts of money at these schools but the funding is based on results in Vocational subjects. At the comprehensive school in question I asked the headteacher why they only offered one language (french) when making choices for GCSE's. She admitted she would like to have kept German as an option but as their funding is dependent on results in vocational results, the money had to be spent elsewhere. So, if you are in the upper streams of a comprehensive, you are actually being penalised by the system, which is being ever more geared towards nonsense qualifications such as plumbing and the like. Now I'm not saying that those less academic children shouldn't be catered for, but on the basis of my experience I know **** well where I want my third child to go.

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Steve, Southchurch says...
5:02pm Wed 21 Nov 07

As a point of order, how can you have a Comprehsive system and a grammar school system at the same time?

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Firestorm, Southend says...
5:04pm Wed 21 Nov 07

The problem is that with more parents paying for private tuition in order to get their kids through the 11 plus the Grammar school places available to the kids who are bright enough without the extra tuition are effectively falling.
For the Grammar school idea to work across all classes there must be a level playing field regarding primary scholl tuition, and this is clearly not the case.
Streaming in comprehensive schools works just as well and if the percieved "elite schools" were not there, the quality teachers which they attract due to there status would be spread to the mainstream thus improving the education of all children.
If wealthier parents want to improve their childs chances of getting better final qualifications let them pay for additional secondary education after hours. That way they will not deprive the less well off kids of the quality teachers everyone deserves

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Dan, North Leigh says...
10:53pm Wed 21 Nov 07

Dave H wrote:
"You can't buy brains"

No, but you can buy your kids private tutoring to pass the 11+, and a lot of people do.
I came in the top 400 out of 4000+ back in 1996 when taking my 11+ without a single second of private tutoring. All you need is a child with some ability, parents willing to put the effort in and less than £10 to buy some sample exam sheets and a guide book or two. Money has nothing to do with it.

People who failed or whose kids may have failed because they didn't put the time in should find a better excuse than a lack of money.

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Chris, says...
4:29pm Sun 30 Dec 07

I taught at one of the grammar schools for six years in Southend and the knowledge of working in a superb school with able and bright pupils willing to learn has always stayed with me. Grammar schools are about ability; not money or background - and they are a fine British tradition of the left; so New Labour has got it wrong as usual

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